Curse

Martin Alvito · Apr 08, 2010, 08:09 PM // 20:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

Tip for PUG players: just because you made the build yourself, doesn't make it good. Go to PvX, use something from there. That way you'll be useful.

"Good is the enemy of great." - Jim Collins

PvX provides good builds. It rarely provides great ones, because there are strong incentives to keep great strategies and builds quiet. Now, if you don't understand the game, PvX is the first place you should go. But it is no substitute for an understanding of the underlying mechanics.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mage767

5. Don't form a party if you suck. Most likely, you will form a poorly balanced group for the task, increasing the likelihood of fail. In order words, don't have failz written all over your forehead.

Great advice. The only issue with it is that too many bad players don't know that they suck. I won't link it due to site rules, but there is quality psychological research out there indicating that failbots think that they do not suck precisely because they lack the skills that would enable them to realize that they fail.

Ariovist Lynxkind · Apr 08, 2010, 08:21 PM // 20:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tharg

I never ask people to ping. They should figure out what works for themselves. I hate to ping my build (mostly monk) because I know what works for me. Probably not latest and greatest compared to what's on PvX Wiki - but it works for me...

Same here, I hate to ping my build too cause I am usually running a straight-up BM build. I was doing good even before the pet buff, but like with other builds and classes you get those in a PUG which complain, saying you should bring this and that, and to drop the pet, etc. You know how to work your build to good effect, and I am the same, just some people get stuck in that kind of mentality

Cuilan · Apr 08, 2010, 08:31 PM // 20:31

PvX is mixed, it has all the good builds and variants of builds that could become great with changes but it still has some pretty awful stuff at times. I don't dare review or rate builds on PvX because of its strict review censorship.

Kicking people doesn't help PUGs because the person who was kicked never learned anything if they weren't explained why, etc.

As for pinging unfamiliar builds, it depends. Most builds one can make are easy to pick up and play.

That's a wonderful quote, Martin Alvito.

Zahr Dalsk · Apr 08, 2010, 09:07 PM // 21:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ariovist Lynxkind

I strongly disagree, cause not all the good builds are on PvX and unless the outdated ones have been removed not all the builds on PvX are good.

1. Click on the Great category, not All.

2. Even outdated and bad PvX builds are better than shit a PUGger put together himself.

Ariovist Lynxkind · Apr 08, 2010, 09:42 PM // 21:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

1. Click on the Great category, not All.

2. Even outdated and bad PvX builds are better than shit a PUGger put together himself.

1. Cookie-cutter builds, especially 'Great' ones get nerfed every now and then. The really great ones rarely make it on there for that exact reason.

2. Not every PUGer has a shit build and you would be surprised at some of the different ideas people come up with out there. Not to mention the fact that not everyone looks at PvX, and to some degree there are those that dont even know about it, yet come up with interesting and great builds

As I have said before, I would prefer someone who, on paper, looks like they have a shit build but know how to use it effectively than someone using a 'great' build from PvX but dont have a clue to work it.

Sidenote: Pinging a build to me is not exactly a good guide, as while it gives the attribute settings, they dont account for what armour/weapon mods the person is running. Some may be more powerful than you think, while others could have a crap setup with a 'great' build and still be useless

Athrun Feya · Apr 08, 2010, 10:05 PM // 22:05

PvX is useful if used correctly. It should just be an extension of a players natural instinct to look for synergy between skills, not the be-all-and-end-all. PvX may not have everything ironed out properly and its a bugger to keep updated with the amount of different opinions and occasional skill updates. However, a lot of successful builds being used in PvE are variants of what's on PvX (when talking about builds "original" tends to come across as an insult).

On topic though, you don't need to optimise everything in PvE; builds themselves are far from the reason why PuGs often fail. The two things most PuG teams lack are leadership and communication; even with the best builds ever created without these two things pug teams will continue to fail.

awry · Apr 08, 2010, 10:38 PM // 22:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ariovist Lynxkind

Same here, I hate to ping my build too cause I am usually running a straight-up BM build. I was doing good even before the pet buff, but like with other builds and classes you get those in a PUG which complain, saying you should bring this and that, and to drop the pet, etc. You know how to work your build to good effect, and I am the same, just some people get stuck in that kind of mentality

What kind of group functions well when they don't even know what their teammates are doing? If you don't ping your builds, you get redundant hexes, you get two spirit spammers canceling each other out, you get 3 guys claiming they're "tanks" and have no dmg, you get someone with some generic build that is good 90 percent of the time, but doesn't work in this situation. A good group leader asks everyone to ping just to avoid confusion and false assumptions, like hey i thought that monk was healing or hey nobody can rez at all? Why are people so afraid of pinging, if you think your build is good, then you should have a good explanation/argument to give to the leader of why it is good.

Laraja · Apr 08, 2010, 10:50 PM // 22:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tharg

I never ask people to ping. They should figure out what works for themselves. I hate to ping my build (mostly monk) because I know what works for me. Probably not latest and greatest compared to what's on PvX Wiki - but it works for me...

If I play a monk most of the time, why would someone who plays another profession most of the time know what's best for me???

I have had instances where a PUG basically forced a skill bar on me that I was not familiar with - and I sucked so badly... They were all upset (noob!!!) but hey - they should have let me play with my own bar.

^^This.

This is why I'm not a build nazi. I may make suggestions but I have discovered that it's better to let someone play a poor build that they know well than a good build they are completely unfamiliar with. Not that I'm saying your build is poor, Tharg, but just saying forcing someone to play a build they're not familiar with is worse than just leaving them alone. And anyway, unless you're doing Frostmaw or Duncan HM or something like that, most of the time you can get a way with a sub-optimal group, such as the Norn Bear HM, just grab 8 people and go, skip the shrine and there you are.

But back to the OP message. It would be nice if some of those rules were posted on a board in some of the bigger town and outposts in GW, lol. The biggest PuG failure has been people not staying with the group. That tryannus boss (Lord of the Marsh) in Sparkfly comes to mind. He's easy, but not when people rush and leave people stranded to fight with mobs of raptors.

Ariovist Lynxkind · Apr 08, 2010, 10:50 PM // 22:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by awry

What kind of group functions well when they don't even know what their teammates are doing? If you don't ping your builds, you get redundant hexes, you get two spirit spammers canceling each other out, you get 3 guys claiming they're "tanks" and have no dmg, you get someone with some generic build that is good 90 percent of the time, but doesn't work in this situation. A good group leader asks everyone to ping just to avoid confusion and false assumptions, like hey i thought that monk was healing or hey nobody can rez at all? Why are people so afraid of pinging, if you think your build is good, then you should have a good explanation/argument to give to the leader of why it is good.

the reason why people are afraid to ping their builds is cause of the idiots who will either auto-kick if they are the leader or demand to kick if they arnt, or will demand you change your build, no matter how many times you tell them it works fine. when people usually rant about PUGs it is usually going off on 'noobs' etc, but those are the ones most detrimental to the group because they expect it to function a certain way (their way) and will belittle anyone who disagrees, and it is those people who make others be afraid to ping their builds

That and the usual of where someone has an extremely good build they worry about someone else stealing it, posting it on PvX, it becoming popular then hit with the nerf bat.

I personally am the former rather than the latter. I will accept suggestions, but I wont go out of my way to buy whole new skills or even change my entire skill bar because someone demands it, which is what usually happens when you ping your build

Cuilan · Apr 08, 2010, 11:03 PM // 23:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ariovist Lynxkind

I will accept suggestions, but I wont go out of my way to buy whole new skills or even change my entire skill bar because someone demands it

In PUGs that were willing to wait and in groups that had a few people I know, I've gone to buy and tome skills. Zone faster and use your chocolate bunnies if you must.

mage767 · Apr 08, 2010, 11:12 PM // 23:12

If you dont' have all the skills for your profession, you shouldn't be doing HM stuff. Either be fully prepared to take skills for your prof as demanded by party leader (remember, this person might be doing this for the greater good of the team - no one gives a shit if you feel your fav bar is being ditched), or be your own leader. If you take the latter route, you will not get the chance to learn something new...so yeah, build nazis are needed to teach pugs...'good' build nazis that is.

Ariovist Lynxkind · Apr 08, 2010, 11:30 PM // 23:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

In PUGs that were willing to wait and in groups that had a few people I know, I've gone to buy and tome skills. Zone faster and use your chocolate bunnies if you must.

I wont go out of my way for a group of people I may only do one or two missions with, especially when I know my build is good enough anyway, and they are just being demanding.

@mage767: I have resisted using the N word until now (we all know Goodwin's law) but I hate build Nazis, because generally they want cookie-cutter builds and thats it. the 'open to new things' goes both ways, cause if you stick to the cookie-cutter builds you dont see any variables which can actually help

I don't have anything against the ones that suggest things, I am open anytime. It is the ones that demand it, as in 'you must change or else' and they themselves aren't open to other ideas that I dislike

JDRyder · Apr 08, 2010, 11:38 PM // 23:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phaern Majes

Aye PvX has some good builds, but that doesn't make all builds that aren't on there bad. If someone pings me a bar that keeps to 2 maybe 3 attributes and they seem to work together and do their job, then I have no problem taking them.

That said most of the game can be done with less than 8 players anyways so even bringing a person or two running bad builds probably won't make or break you (granted HM in some end-game stuff it might).

For example my buddy just started playing again, having had RL problems to deal with for the last 3 years. He was on the last mission of Nightfall and we picked up a Dervish who was having trouble with the mission. When he pinged his build I saw why - 3 scythe mastery skills, 2 mysticism, 1 earth prayers, 1 healing prayers, 1 smiting prayers and all his attributes were spread out in those.

But I figured what the hell its Abaddon on normal we'll pull the guy through, and hell we even managed to get master's. And the guy was really friendly, just needed a hand was all.

Point being yes there are some really bad builds, but most of the time they won't make or break your team and more often then not if you explain to them why the build probably isn't so good in a way that doesn't make them feel like they are being talked down to then you might, just might have a chance at BadGWplayers -= 1;

The game community used to be helpful now its ping your build and /kickfromgroup. People act like they were perfect from the start and never had anyone explain any aspect of the game to them.

Agreed, though I blame a number of things for ruining the game, heros, pve skills ect, HM is another thing that had a major factor in destroying the game. I believe HM is what got people on this "Lawlz that build sucks need moar pve skillz" not because HM is "hard" it just forces people to use over all shitty builds that aren't fun to play and destroys the balance for some classes. Tbh Idk why people would actually want to play in HM if they could help it.

Like it or not, PuGs are the majority of the game. Imo they should of catered to them more from the start.

Nabru Yar · Apr 08, 2010, 11:44 PM // 23:44

being asked to *ping* a build for a PuG is borderline insulting...
then again< I do understand the necessity. /sigh

merciless_mike · Apr 08, 2010, 11:58 PM // 23:58

My overall biggest pet peeve with PuGs right now, is the cookie cutter monk builds out there.
By having Healers Boon and Heal Party be the "meta" (or at least the super popular option), it makes some really lazy players think they're good at monking.

Now by all means, I do not think I'm all that good either, but I know better than to just spam party heals at high cost when only one guy is taking damage.

I'll also add that I see so many people not taking any protection spells on either monk bar (assuming the normal setup of 2 healers). There's only so much outright heals can do for you, a couple of Invoke Lightnings and there goes half your team.

Ariovist Lynxkind · Apr 09, 2010, 12:37 AM // 00:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by merciless_mike

My overall biggest pet peeve with PuGs right now, is the cookie cutter monk builds out there.
By having Healers Boon and Heal Party be the "meta" (or at least the super popular option), it makes some really lazy players think they're good at monking.

Now by all means, I do not think I'm all that good either, but I know better than to just spam party heals at high cost when only one guy is taking damage.

yeah, true. The build really is only as good as the player using it

Essence Snow · Apr 09, 2010, 01:45 AM // 01:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by mage767

1) If you dont' have all the skills for your profession, you shouldn't be doing HM stuff. 2) Either be fully prepared to take skills for your prof as demanded by party leader (remember, this person might be doing this for the greater good of the team - no one gives a shit if you feel your fav bar is being ditched), or be your own leader. If you take the latter route, you will not get the chance to learn something new...so yeah, 3) build nazis are needed to teach pugs...'good' build nazis that is.

1) Not having every skill for a profession doesn't mean much. Not many ppl have every skill for every char that is not their main.

2) If this is the party leader...ditch them..they are happier with their h/h anyways.

3) These ppl make PUGing bad....I'd much rather play with pleasent ppl (even if they r not the best) and enjoy my time than play "Hail Hitler".

4) Long of the short~Golden Rule~Treating others the way you want to be treated will make PuGs much more enjoyable.

*Darcy* · Apr 09, 2010, 01:57 AM // 01:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ariovist Lynxkind

Another thing too, with asking people to change builds they need the time to work out how to work the build. I would rather go through a mish with someone who is used to their build and can probably use it to great affect rather than someone who has switched to a new build and is still finding their way.

I totally agree. Nothing is worse than being asked to take a build that is totally new to you. It cripples you and makes your presence a wasted team slot.

Zahr Dalsk · Apr 09, 2010, 02:20 AM // 02:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

Now, if you don't understand the game

See that thing you said? Remember it, because it's the case with 95% of PUG players, and it's why they should use PvX builds.

Also PvX DOES have a lot of the best builds there are, because they've been tested and refined by many players.

Ariovist Lynxkind · Apr 09, 2010, 02:59 AM // 02:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

See that thing you said? Remember it, because it's the case with 95% of PUG players, and it's why they should use PvX builds.

Also PvX DOES have a lot of the best builds there are, because they've been tested and refined by many players.

I hate to start a flame war, but people like you are the ones that make up most of the PUGs I come across and are what puts me off getting in PUG groups. I am not saying there arent those who are struggling, but it is more the 'ur build sux go PvX I wanna get this done in 5 minutes change to splinter barrage, run this that and the other' etc people that I see and frankly that puts me off forming groups outside of my alliance and and makes H&Hing is preferable.